Sexual Harassment

[nightrythm]

A friend of mine was harassed today while out walking. It wasn't the first time she has been subjected to cat-calling, but today it upset her enough to post about it. It made her feel vulnerable, despite the presumed “compliment” (on the part of the men doing the hollering).

Many of the women on my flist have been posting in response to this. The talk about how they feel, about what it’s like to feel threatened when there’s a man behind you in a hallway or following you into the bathroom at a club. twistedcat makes some great points here: http://twistedcat.livejournal.com/1080747.html.

I want to speak to my experience, not with strangers, but with friends. My friends work faire. They are sexual beings (and proud to be so). We are very cuddly. At parties the women dress in revealing and sexy costumes. And there is a prevailing air that that freedom doesn’t come with a price, but it does.

I at one point had myself trained to swing around ready to clobber someone when my butt was touched. Now, if I’m in a familiar environment I peak over my shoulder to see who it is. If it’s not someone to whom I’d allow the liberty I scowl and tell them to back off. But the fact that they took that liberty pisses me off. Am I in such a permissive group that people can touch me without asking? I mean really.

Recently I was hanging out with a friend, watching movies. We were snuggly. We’ve kissed at the occasional party, but really we aren’t sexual. At some point in the evening, as a joke (if I recall correctly) he put his hand on my breast. No! Not allowed! And I told him that. But what the fuck made him think it was OK?

At one party this year I was wearing a thong under a translucent skirt, much more revealing that I normally wear. What happened? Everyone told me I had a nice ass. I was embarrassed both by the compliment itself and the fact that I liked being complimented even while the language made me uncomfortable. I had one friend though that couldn’t keep his eyes off me and couldn’t stop commenting about what a great ass I had. It made me angry. I didn’t dress that way for him. I dressed that way for me. It was part of my costume. Sure he was drunk, but that doesn’t make it OK. He didn’t have the right to make me feel like a thing. I ended up spending all my time seated, or with my back against the wall because I didn’t want to be just *ass*.

This kind of thing happens all the time. I hear girls in our group bitch about it. Some guy says he admires us all for our minds and then after that disclaimer goes on about what great a great –insert body part here- so and so has. Well it’s fucking time to say something to the rest of you. Stop it! Cut that shit out.

Yes, you can compliment a woman. Tell her she’s pretty or she’s hot. But for my part, the moment I start hearing that I or anyone else in the room is “fuckable”, or even jokingly, “I’d like of piece of that” it makes me angry. I feel objectified. Suddenly I’m not a person. I’m not your friend. I’m a sexual toy. I’m a thing to be used. Think about that.

I’ll even admit that I’m guilty of using the same kind of language in regards to my friends. I resisted for a really long time, but eventually slid into it, partially because I don’t like to be perceived as a stick-in-the-mud and I want everyone to like me. But also, it’s what happens when you spend time with people.

You pick up their language and behaviors. Think about it. Where did you pick up that habit of referring to things as “gay”? I bet those guys told you it was all in fun and they don’t mean anything by it. You know they don’t mean anything by it ‘cause you certainly don’t. But does that make it OK?

So when we are outraged at the insensitivity of men and the fact that they don’t seem to understand what it is like to live in vigilance, perhaps we need to look to our own and make sure that we all see where those behaviors start. I’m not saying to bite someone’s head off every time there’s a joke or a comment about someone’s body part, but we should at least think about telling our friends when it’s not OK.

Comments

[spiritdancing.livejournal.com]

I know I certainly need to grow some ovaries and speak up for myself better.

I have often been relegated to a nice rack and a good ass. That perception of me stuck far more than the "pretty and smart," which is part of where my self esteem and image issues come from, I think. I got to a point where I thought I was nothing better than a (pardon the vulgarity) cock warmer, because I figured that if so many people just saw me as tits and an ass, they must be right. I've gotten better about my image of myself, but it still makes me so uncomfortable to hear people say things about me in such a way...about anyone. Often I am not present to hear it about myself, but I hear about it later, usually from one of my dearest girlfriends because people think it's okay to tell her.

The sad part is, that now I can't hear a sincere compliment without equating it with the catcalling kind. I can't tell the difference sometimes.

[ascius.livejournal.com]

"Recently I was hanging out with a friend, watching movies. We were snuggly. We’ve kissed at the occasional party, but really we aren’t sexual. At some point in the evening, as a joke (if I recall correctly) he put his hand on my breast. No! Not allowed! And I told him that. But what the fuck made him think it was OK?"

There's no way a straight man won't see snuggling and kissing as nonsexual with an attractive woman. No way at all. You've deluded yourself if you think that won't provoke escalation... such as breast fondling.

On the one hand, many men need to learn to be less like wild dogs, but on the other hand... a thong and a see-through dress is like dragging fresh meat in front of the dogs... sure a trained dog won't bite, but you can't expect all dogs to be trained. And if you don't keep strict boundaries, they will cross them.

And really, if anyone lays a hand on you without your consent, or makes you feel afraid for your safety, you're well within your rights to spray mace in their eyes.

As for deluding myself...

[nightrythm]

There was no kissing on this occassion and we've snuggled for years. Many of my friends and I are touchy/snuggly people without it having a sexual over/undertone. In fact this person and I had a sibbling-type relationship. And Patch was sitting in the chair next to us! There is zero reason this guy should have thought he could put his hand on my breast.

Re: As for deluding myself...

[ascius.livejournal.com]

Yet obviously, somewhere in his head, something added up to him that he could.

A woman's view and a man's view of anything in particular can vary drastically... we're practically seperate species, it's what makes relationships of any sort so difficult.

[nightrythm]

"On the one hand, many men need to learn to be less like wild dogs, but on the other hand... a thong and a see-through dress is like dragging fresh meat in front of the dogs... sure a trained dog won't bite, but you can't expect all dogs to be trained."

ascius, dude, that sounds a lot like saying it's understandable a woman was raped because she was wearing very little.

Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[yourmuse.livejournal.com]

...not to mention the fact that ascius is actually comparing a woman to a piece of meat.

I have to give a great big WTF to this statement, too: "There's no way a straight man won't see snuggling and kissing as nonsexual with an attractive woman. No way at all. You've deluded yourself if you think that won't provoke escalation... such as breast fondling."

ascius, you're just plain wrong. Oh, and would the straight man in your scenario feel differently if the woman were unattractive? Or how about if the woman had actually had a conversation with the man about the nature of their relationship? Would there still be "no way" he would see their relationship as non-sexual, even if she'd told him so?

I don't know you, so maybe you're just not very articulate online, but I'm really offended by most of what you've expressed here.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

You forgot I compared men to wild dogs.

Attraction is an instinctual system, you can discuss it, and a man can give up active pursuit, but in the end, men still have it, when boundaries aren't strong, and inhibitions are reduced (drink/drugs), men are more likely to cross them. Men are dangerous animals, you need to remember that. And yes, an unattractive woman is less likely to inspire that sort of behavior, because the drive isn't as strong.

I believe in protecting women, but I also believe in women being strong and smart, so they don't always need protecting. I'd love to change every man into a well mannered human being, but it's just not happening, so I deal with the realities, and I'd like to think others could to.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[yourmuse.livejournal.com]

"You forgot I compared men to wild dogs."

Nope, I didn't forget. That just happens to be a less demeaning analogy: both men and dogs are sentient beings. A piece of meat is an inanimate object.

Attraction is instinctual. Fine. But (a) that's true for men and women, and (b) human beings (and even wild dogs) have the capacity to decide how to behave.

I'd feel sorry for you for regarding men as "dangerous animals," except that I realize that you're doing so to excuse unacceptable behavior. You are so far out of line you don't even realize what a misogynist you are - or how little credit you give men.

I don't ever want your kind of "protection."

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

It's funny that you think I'm defending men.

So far I've said:
1. Most men are dogs that view women as pieces of meat.
2. Women should think carefuly to protect themselves from men.
3. Women should fight back against men the moment they feel afraid or a boundry is crossed.

And THIS makes me a misogynist? I'd think to most reasonable people I'd sound like a feminist at the moment.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[yourmuse.livejournal.com]

I'm done with this conversation, because it's not going anywhere. Rest assured that I know exactly what you're saying. I just wholeheartedly disagree with the basis for your arguments.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

I can see how you'd be done, the name-calling can get tiring. I suppose I'll just have to do without being told I'm wrong for having an opinion.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[twistedcat.livejournal.com]

being that you're male, it comes off very much like making excuses for your gender.

bnecause you're making excuses for your gender, even if it's not in a complimentary way.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

Understanding is not excusing.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[twistedcat.livejournal.com]

Men are dangerous animals, you need to remember that.

funny, i thought they were human beings. with the power to consider and choose their actions.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

So are dogs... but you don't offer your hand to every one you meet, do you?

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[evilgerbil.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite offended, but as a woman, I'm definitely saddened that you say men are dangerous animals. We're all animals, but we've got reason and logic to counteract the instincts of the reptilian hindbrains. We're all capable of heinous acts but that doesn't make us dangerous.

I don't know. That was just a really sad statement.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

(reposted due to accidental deletion)
It's perfectly understandable. Not acceptable, not right, but predictable? Yes. If a woman dresses provocatively and doesn't protect herself, she's liable to fall prey to predators.

It's common fucking sense. You can lament that the world isn't a safe happy place, but that won't make it a safe happy place. You have to deal with the reality that there are bad men and reduce your risks accordingly.

You don't leave expensive items visible in your car in a high crime area, do you? Because you'd expect a criminal would be more tempted by seeing them and steal them. How is your body any different around a predator? You don't show it off, they're less likely to be tempted.

I'm not saying it's the victims' fault, I'm saying they can't be thoughtless.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[nightrythm]

You can lament that the world isn't a safe happy place, but that won't make it a safe happy place. You have to deal with the reality that there are bad men and reduce your risks accordingly.

Yes, and part of reducing those risks is education. Educating the people around us (men and women both) as to what behavior is acceptable and what is not. *That* is the whole point of my post.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

I agree, education is very important, but I'm not seeing that message so much as the complaints in the posts I've found... I just wanted to point out that women should be encouraged to draw those lines, and that (in your personal case) those lines may be more subtle, such as in a platonic relationship, you may want to avoid aspects that point at sexuality.

In the end though, there's going to be some bad eggs, there's a lot of social engineering that makes men do things that will make women uncomfortable, and worse yet, there are some women who will still encourage that sort of behavior. No matter how well educated we are, those individuals will still be around. Which is why I wanted to push the idea of personal responsibility. I wasn't trying to say all women should just protect themselves and leave it at that.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[twistedcat.livejournal.com]

dood. she was in her own home when she was "dressed provocatively." it's not like she chose to walk down to 7-11 like that. yes, there was a party. but she was at home.

Re: Also sounds like blaming the victim to me

[ascius.livejournal.com]

She may have been at home, but she was not in private. If it was one of those horrendously huge parties, then there was the possibility of strangers (well, friends of friends... maybe even to a third or fourth degree) being around, people you'd not normally dress that way in front of. That matters, homes are basically public when you invite a shitton of people into them.

[twistedcat.livejournal.com]

he can see it any way he chooses, and will, but taking an overt action like that without express permission is NOT OK.

i could give a flying potato bug about what's going on in someone's head. they still have to treat me (and any woman) with respect.

as it has been pointed out, there is a very slippery slope between what you just said and justifying rape.

[ascius.livejournal.com]

Well, you've suggested I'm justifying rape. That's almost like the nazi argument. I must now cave in to you and agree. You're right, when anyone else does something to you that you could have prevented, it's totally not your fault. You're blameless and pristine, it's a total shock and suprise, nobody could have seen it coming, because they should have just chosen to be good people instead of you having to take on the tedious task of being wary.

I'm glad we could come to an agreeance that women don't have to think about anything or be careful about anything, because all the problems are the stupid men who don't just act nice for some unaccountable reason that can't be changed except by telling them they're stupid and need to act better.

And I have to respect you, because you're a woman. You could possibly be a mass-murdering shitfuck of a woman, but obviously you're not, because you're a woman, it's required that I respect you, I'm sorry for even mentioning such a crude thought. And obviously, since I'm not a woman, I must be disrespected, I'm so glad you came here to give me the disrespect I so richly deserve.

[ascius.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to start all this shit in your post hon. I'm done now with that last diatribe.

i admit.

[chamilyun.livejournal.com]

there were times where i felt pressured to be as naked/permissive/whatever as some others, i usually just avoided it, or left the situation because i didn't want to make confrontations with people who were louder and more able to express their opinions than me. i didn't tell 'friends' when it wasn't ok because i didn't feel like i could have without repercussion or getting 'joked' with about it.

Re: i admit.

[nightrythm]

i didn't tell 'friends' when it wasn't ok because i didn't feel like i could have without repercussion or getting 'joked' with about it.

That is the hardes part about speaking up. We can face ridicule for it. But you know what, no one learns if you don't tell them.